John Gummer: Does the Secretary of State agree that not only this system but others that she has in mind, such as under the water framework directive, depend very much on farmers' support and understanding, and that the farming community currently have a very low regard for its relationships not only with the top of her Department but right the way down it, for which there are all sorts of reasons? Can she consider carefully ways of using farm payments so that farmers see that she listens and understands what their problems are? Otherwise, I fear that there will be a knock-on effect for all the other things that she wants to do. There is a lack of confidence and support, and she must try to do something about it.

Margaret Beckett: I take the point made by the hon. Gentleman. Of course land should not necessarily have been registered in quite the same way as it must be registered now. I am afraid, however, that there are parcels of land that should indeed have been registered in the past. We are not pursuing the matter, but the fact is that all that has greatly complicated the RPA's work.
	The hon. Gentleman said that I had displayed barely concealed anger. I do not think that the anger was concealed at all, actually. I can assure the House that neither I nor any member of my ministerial team wanted to have to come here and say that we would be unable begin making payments at the very start of the payment date.
	The hon. Gentleman says that in other member states the forms are simpler. They may be in some cases, but the systems are not necessarily simpler and in fact we are not comparing like with like. In Germany, for example, there is a different structure and system in each Lander. We published what we hoped would be the payment dates, and we published the new date as soon as we knew that it would have to be a little later, to try to give people at least some long-term planning certainty. Many other member states that have not publicly commented on their payment dates are experiencing exactly the same difficulties as us.

Ben Bradshaw: We are studying the results of the Irish trials with great care and are already carrying out a cost-benefit analysis of their implications, but I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that, as I am sure he is aware, the Irish Government have not changed their policy on culling as a result of the trials. They have not introduced pro-active culling along the lines of those trials, because they do not believe that such a policy would be viable. For example, the trials involved the almost total extermination of badgers over quite large areas of the country.
	The questions that we all need to ask ourselves are whether a badger-culling policy could be cost-effective, sustainable and viable. Those questions still have to be answered. I welcome the report from the university of Exeter. I have not yet had a chance to read it in full—it was published only yesterday—but I shall do so. From what I have heard of it, it sounds like an excellent report on a subject that we take very seriously.

Geoff Hoon: I am slightly puzzled by the hon. Gentleman's first observation, since he obviously has not studied the Labour party manifesto with the care that I would expect. It clearly set out our intention to launch a debate about road pricing. He will also be aware that the convention on ministerial statements is that Ministers are rightly required to make statements when there is a change in Government policy. This is not a change in Government policy, but an extensive consultation exercise about the extent to which members of the public would support the initiative of road pricing. We are not necessarily saying as yet that it is the right way forward; we are saying that there should be a discussion. Indeed, if he checks with his Front-Bench colleague who speaks for the Opposition on transport, the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan), he will find that his colleagues welcomed the initiative. If his hon. Friend been so concerned about the need for a Minister to make a statement, he could have tabled a private notice question, but none was forthcoming. This is a debate. It is not a change in Government policy, and a statement is therefore not required.
	I welcome the hon. Gentleman's observations about the Opposition's support for this country's bid to host the Olympic games, and I am sure that his raising the matter today has considerably assisted the campaign.
	I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his observations about the Licensing Act 2003. I am also grateful for the opportunity to remind those who might be affected that it is necessary to make applications by 6 August. The hon. Gentleman has provided me with a useful opportunity to emphasise the importance of that issue, although we are confident that everyone will have the opportunity to make an application in due time.
	I join the hon. Gentleman in condemning the situation in Zimbabwe. We know that the opposition there have today organised a stay-away, and we would condemn absolutely any use of force against people who are peacefully demonstrating. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the opportunity to reassert the Government's clear view on the matter.

Alistair Carmichael: May we have an early statement from the Home Secretary on the possible use of section 44 of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2000 for the policing of protests that relate to the various G8 events in different parts of the United Kingdom? Does the Leader of the House accept that it is wrong for police forces to use powers that were given to them by this House for the purpose of combating terrorism to frustrate and harass people seeking to express their views on a matter of such importance? After the summit, may we have a statement on the powers that the different police forces used and the basis on which they were employed so that we know how the powers that we give policeforces are used?

Martin Linton: May I join the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) in asking the Leader of the House to find time for a debate on the way in which Parliament is seen outside this building, in the light of the Hansard Society report, "Members Only? Parliament in the Public Eye"? In particular, we should like to debate its proposals for a separate chief executive, a House of Commons Commission elected by Members in a secret ballot, and a communications department that would bring together all the people in the House who work with the public but who are presently scattered across four separate departments.

Geoff Hoon: I understand the concern. This question was raised at the previous business question, the issue is important for the Government, and we intend to move ahead with the Bill.

Mr. Secretary Darling, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr Secretary Prescott, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Margaret Beckett, Mr. Speaker Secretary Hewitt, Mr. Secretary Clarke, Mr. Secretary Hain, Secretary Alan Johnson, Mr. Speaker Harriet Harman and Mr. Speaker Karen Buck, presented a Bill to make further provision about civil aviation, including provision about the funding of the Air Travel Trust; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Monday 13 June, and to be printed. Explanatory notes to be printed [Bill 12].

Gerry Sutcliffe: It will in some respects but not in every respect. However, the work of the Financial Services Authority, combined with the banking code, should resolve some of these problems. I shall return to the question of interest rate caps and hidden charges. We are trying to establish a transparent process through which the borrower knows exactly what the charges are and when they kick in. Indeed, the annual written statement enables the borrower to understand their position. This is a wake-up call those in the industry, to ensure that unscrupulous ones cannot operate those hidden charges in the way that some of them have done in the past.

John Battle: I agree, as would the majority of lenders in the business. They want to drive the worst lenders out of the marketplace, and would support a programme in which people must provide accurate, up-to-date information about their ability to repay so that repayment judgments can be made before they are lent money. We must then implement a panoply of financial advice, including on budget management. We must make sure that programmes are available in schools and neighbourhoods so that people can learn to manage their budget. Ironically, society is much more willing to discuss sex than debt—it is the great no-no. Part of the problem is that people will not admit how much they are in debt, and are ashamed of their debts.
	As the Minister knows, we have had lengthy discussions about unjustifiably high interest rates. I still believe that the Government should serve notice in the Bill that if lenders exceed a marker rate they will be penalised. The Minister said that interest rates will be kept under review, but I would like a reserve power to be introduced. If he thought the rate was too high he could draw on that power instead of being in a position where rates might be reviewed by his successors in the next 30 years. I would like to hurry that along, but it is open to debate. The Minister will wish to make his own arguments, so perhaps we should clarify the position at a later stage.
	In conclusion, the concept of an unfair credit test must be clarified. We should introduce a responsible lending test for lenders so that the poor are not driven further into debt without protection. There should also be a reserve power to cap interest rates in future. I welcome the Bill, which provides a good framework. Much good work has already been done by Members of all parts of the House, and the Bill has widespread support. We must, however, make some of its definitions clearer. We must make sure that it is not an impotent measure in the background; but most importantly, we must put it on the statute book quickly so that people have redress and protection. Some individuals are enduring unsustainable debts and pay the highest price of all to borrow money for basics for their families. They should not be forced to live in financial misery for a single day longer.

Greg Clark: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. "Do well, doubt not" is advice that any maiden speaker in the Chamber should take to heart. It is also the motto of the borough of Tunbridge Wells, the major part of which I have the great honour to represent here. Tunbridge Wells is a strong community, and I feel fortunate to be able to represent it. My constituency comprises not only the historic spa town of Royal Tunbridge Wells. It includes Southborough and High Broom, which is even older, and was home to the first Jewish Member of the House. It also contains Paddock Wood, which started off as a small agricultural settlement and has grown into a lively town in its own right.
	My constituency also contains some of the most beautiful villages in the whole of England, from Groombridge and Speldhurst in the west, right across to Lamberhurst and Goudhurst in the east. Those beautiful villages in the heart of the high weald countryside are the source of great pride to visitors and residents alike.
	Next year is particularly auspicious for Tunbridge Wells, as it is the 400th anniversary of the discovery by Lord North of the Chalybeate spring, which marked the foundation of the town. Lord North's physician opined that the waters of Tunbridge Wells could cure "the colic, the melancholy and the vapours, that they could make the lean fat and the fat lean". For any politician, a place that can cure the melancholy, the colic and the vapours is surely a very good place to choose to live, and I am pleased to do so.
	The quality of life in my constituency is among the best of Britain. One of the jewels in the crown of my constituency will be at the heart of those celebrations of our 400th anniversary—the Pantiles. For Members who do not know it, the Pantiles is the Georgian colonnade par excellence. It contains shops, restaurants, cafes and bars, all of them independently owned and run. In a context in which the high streets and town centres of Britain are accused of being clones of each other, the Pantiles and the High street in Tunbridge Wells are the stunning exception to that rule, and I invite Members to visit if they have not done so previously. I shall do everything that I can to promote such pieces of our national heritage, which is very important.
	Our quality of life extends beyond the Pantiles, and is prized particularly in our residential communities and villages. That is not to say, however, that we do not have our problems. Because our quality of life is so high, my constituents are rightly concerned to keep it that way. The rise in antisocial behaviour, graffiti, vandalism and car crime troubles my constituents, and I have pledged to them to work hard with the local council and police to take a tough line for the good of all people in my constituency.
	In many senses, the worst thing about Tunbridge Wells is leaving it. I say that because the roads in our area are abysmal. I will press Ministers to turn their attention to that, and particularly to the A21 and the much-needed bypass at Colts hill, which is a notorious accident blackspot. The Kent Messenger has been running a strong campaign to get that bypass funded. Those are crucial developments, and I hope to ask Ministers to support my campaign for such improvements.
	Although the springs of Tunbridge Wells are famously efficacious, we do need first-class hospitals in my constituency. A new one is about to be built at Pembury, and my concern is that the poor state of the roads, and the glacial progress towards dualling the A21, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) knows, might impact on the opening time of that new hospital. I am particularly concerned about the decision to refer that upgrade to the South East England regional assembly. I hope that Ministers will reassure me that that does not presage a permanent delay in that project.
	Many people make the mistake of assuming that Tunbridge Wells is uniformly and universally affluent. That is not the case. We have areas of deprivation in my constituency that are the equal of many other parts of the country that are more associated with deprivation. Our problem is that because our average level of income is so high, we often do not get the specialist help and support that we need, and I am concerned that my constituents who most need help lose out in that respect.
	That is one of the reasons that I was keen to catch your eye today, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I know from my experience during the election campaign of the impact of worrying levels of debt in my constituency. I remember distinctly canvassing in an area called Showfields in Tunbridge Wells, and as I knocked door to door, a debt collector followed me almost house for house. I do not know whose visit was the more unwelcome, although we were certainly keeping pace with each other. I am concerned that we should take care of our vulnerable communities, even those in a relatively affluent area such as Tunbridge Wells.
	It is a great privilege, and also a pleasure, to pay tribute to one's predecessor in a maiden speech. I want to mention two very distinguished predecessors, Archie Norman and Lord Mayhew of Twysden.
	I have known Archie Norman for some years as the most candid man I have met in politics. I first encountered Archie when I was appointed director of policy for the Conservative party. I sent him a piece of work for approval, and he sent back an e-mail consisting of three words: "Hopeless, start again". But I can take that advice from Archie Norman, because I know that he has a clear mind and rigorous judgment, and is someone who always speaks the truth. I hope that my party will have occasion to take his advice in the months and years to come, as I certainly hope to do personally.
	Anyone who has worked with Archie will know that he is kind and generous, and enjoys a great deal of affection as well as respect. That respect is very palpable in my constituency. Canvassing in Tunbridge Wells makes it very clear that Archie—as he is universally known there—has a reputation for being a particularly effective constituency MP. The bypass that has just opened at Lamberhurst could well be named the Archie Norman memorial bypass, and the hospital at Pembury also has a great deal to do with his ministrations.
	The other former Member of this House to whom I want to pay particular tribute is Lord Mayhew, perhaps better known to hon. Members as Sir Patrick Mayhew. Lord Mayhew still lives in my constituency, and continues his community service to this day. At every flower show I attend, it seems, Patrick Mayhew is presenting the prizes. When the Royal British Legion march, Patrick Mayhew will be leading the procession. If I go to a fundraiser for the excellent local hospice, I can be certain that Patrick Mayhew will be leading the charge. I am always absolutely delighted to see him. If when I turn up at such events—as I hope I will for many years to come—I am greeted with the same delight as that with which my constituents greet him, I shall consider myself to have done my job very well in this place.
	Lord Mayhew also had a high reputation in this place, and will keep it, as the man responsible for beginning the process that lead to relative, if sadly not absolute, peace in Northern Ireland. In so doing he conducted himself with great dignity, and occasioned great disruption to his life and that of his family as a result of the security threats that that entailed; but he took it with characteristic good grace and humour. I have heard it said that he once thanked his bodyguards most sincerely for being prepared to give up their lives to protect his. One of the guards who was pretty sanguine about his responsibilities responded immediately: "Oh no sir, we are here to get the one who gets you." I am very privileged to have Patrick Mayhew and his wife Jean as my constituents. They are loved and respected in Tunbridge Wells, and I know that that will continue for many years to come.
	Three weeks ago in the Chamber, we heard an excellent response to the Queen's Speech from the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird). In that speech, she described her motivation for entering politics. She said, in particular, that she wanted to help children from the old steel town of South Bank in her constituency to take up the opportunities available to them. She was not to know at the time that sitting in the Chamber for the first time was a product of South Bank. South Bank is the town where I went to comprehensive school, and where my father, like his father before him, was the local milkman. I am keen to associate myself with the sentiments that she expressed. It goes to show that a commitment to come into politics and help in the work to give opportunities to everyone in our society is not the preserve of one political party, but an ambition in the House generally, as I think our presence on both sides of it demonstrates. I am grateful to be in the same House as the hon. and learned Lady.
	The key to improving the life chances of people in my constituency, in South Bank and indeed throughout the country is maintaining strong communities. Tunbridge Wells and the surrounding villages is a set of strong communities, and I am very grateful and honoured to be chosen to be their voice. Voluntary groups, in profusion throughout the constituency, are doing fantastic work, and parish councils are working tirelessly for the good of their villagers. Our local newspaper, the Kent and Sussex Courier, has been awarded this year the national community newspaper of the year award, reflecting its place at the heart of our community.
	It is important that we build up the trust that we place in our local communities. On issues such as planning, we do not trust our local people enough. I want to use my time in this House to transfer some powers away from it—and, indeed, away from Ministers—and to local people in my constituency and others.
	You will probably have discerned from my remarks, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I have fallen in love with Tunbridge Wells and its people. It is very easy to succumb to that. There is an old saying that "Travel broadens the mind", but whenever I do travel these days I have cause to call to mind the final line from that great film "Lawrence of Arabia": "On the whole, I wish I'd stayed in Tunbridge Wells."

Michael Jabez Foster: I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) on the competence of his maiden speech. He is of course very nearly my neighbour, joined as we are not at the hip but by the A21; he can be assured that I will join him in pursuing such issues. Given the competence of his performance today, no one in this place would say, "Hopeless—start again." He is to be greatly congratulated, as indeed is his predecessor, who worked so hard to improve the highways in that area.
	The constituents of Tunbridge Wells will certainly be disgusted by some of the developments in consumer credit in recent years. I doubt whether the Wilson Government of the 1970s expected the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to be "fit for purpose" for more than 30 years. The truth is that it has not been so for some time, and there are perhaps two reasons why, the first of which is social attitudes to debt itself and expectations. In the intervening years, we have witnessed the creation of the "me, now" society, from which I fear we have not recovered. Such a society sets store by the acquisition of consumer goods that were once regarded as luxuries, but which many now regard as necessities.
	However, I am also conscious of the real demands placed on families on low incomes, who feel the need to "keep up with the Joneses" by buying the latest designer trainers or the latest fad in football shirts, thanks to the pressure put on them by their children. I know that these things happen, because my children tell me that their own children sometimes place such demands on them. I say this not by way of criticism but in acknowledgement of the pressures that do exist, to which easy credit is often seen as the answer.
	So this Bill is an important social tool to protect some of the most vulnerable in our society from exploitation by those who have the means to fulfil their desires. There can be few situations in which the parties to a bargain can be as unequal as in the provision of credit. Of course, for most, credit—such as borrowing on a mortgage or borrowing for a new car—is a perfectly reasonable way of acquiring an asset. Those who are economically literate, who surely include most Members, are capable of distinguishing between an offer through the post of two free flights to Europe—involving a loan at 30 per cent. APR—and the offer from a high street bank of a loan at 1 per cent. above the Bank rate. Many, however, do not possess such economic literacy, and I shall return to that issue in due course.
	It is therefore my view that, although the Bill is important, it needs to be more precise about whom and how it is intended to help. Indeed, as was mentioned earlier, the concept in the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, whereby those who decide whether a contract is unfair take account of the relative bargaining positions of the parties should be the starting point in determining unfair relationships. When someone with an income of £100,000 wants to buy a Mercedes, that is a matter for the market; but it is a different matter when someone with three children needs to buy some Christmas gifts. It is also a different matter because one will pay 6 per cent. and the other will pay 50 per cent. That must be wrong, too.
	I should like the Bill to tackle the concern in at least two ways: first, as I say, by taking into account the respective bargaining positions of the parties when determining what is and what is not fair; and, secondly, by imposing an obligation on the lender not to lend where the repayments are unaffordable given the borrower's circumstances when the loan is made.
	I am not suggesting that the lender should be responsible for subsequent difficulties that may arise, but it is my view that many lenders—this applies to the provision of store cards, in particular, and to certain doorstep operators—take no account whatsoever of the ability to pay. Indeed, it would be entirely possible, by regulation, to set a test for that ability—perhaps along the lines of requiring that a residue disposable income of, say, two thirds of the social security rate must be available for living after accounting for the maximum repayments under a contract, or something of that nature. In particular, such an arrangement should apply to store and credit cards, where vast credit limits are often set that, if used to their limits, can sometimes place debtors in an impossible situation.
	The hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) mentioned that he was offered additional credit irrespective of his means. I was pleased to receive, although did not accept, an offer of significant additional credit earlier this year, just before the election, when my Tory opponents were telling me that I had no chance of future employment. They were wrong, but the credit card company could have been wrong, too. Such offers are, indeed, nonsense.
	My solution would be that, where excessive credit is granted in such circumstances, the debt should not be recoverable. The system should be as pressured as that for the lender. In short, when recovering debt, the creditor should be able to show that an assessment was made of the debtor's ability to repay at the time of the granting of the credit.
	For many of those of us who may be lawyers, the discussion of consumer credit is of academic interest; but, for some, it is an issue of life itself. I should like to tell the House a little about a debt survey that was carried out in my constituency just last year by Peter Ambrose and Liz Cunningham of the university of Brighton, which serves to show just why the Bill is necessary.
	The study, entitled "The Ever Increasing Circle", was published in November last year and commissioned by a charity known as the Tomorrows People Trust, with the help of GOSE—the Government office for the south-east—Hastings borough council and the Greater Hollington Partnership. Those working for the Tomorrows People Trust had noted in their efforts to move the unemployed into employment that around 30 per cent. of people were reluctant even to try to do so because they said that they could not afford to go to work. So the survey was commissioned to look at groups in both Hastings and Brighton to discover whether that perception was well founded.
	Sadly, the situation was even worse than those involved had believed. The survey showed that a staggering 38 per cent. of people found that debt was the main barrier to seeking employment. It was recognised that the welfare-to-work strategy in which the Government have created initiatives—such as the job grant, housing and council tax benefit run-on and adviser discretion grants—was helpful in assisting the long-term unemployed. Yet all that was not enough for many people to deal with and overcome debt as an impediment to seeking employment.
	Of course, it was not only the barrier to work that was a problem when debt became unmanageable. Indeed, health—particularly mental health—family breakdown and exclusion from community activity were all part and parcel of the dilemma. However, for a significant minority—38 per cent.—debt was their major barrier.
	The respondents were then asked why. Some said it was the amount of emotional energy, not just the cash, that the issue took that made it difficult for them to concentrate on finding work. They said things such as:
	"I think it stops me looking for work—it's always on my mind, especially with all these court things. If I get a job, then they're going to take it out of my wages and things like that. I can't really afford for that to happen if I've got to pay housing and council tax and look after my son. It's quite scary."
	Another woman said:
	"It's a no win situation. If you get back into work then you fall into a less helped category and take on more responsibility and it's this big support thing of going back to work, sorting things out."
	As people try to sort out their debts, the creditors come after them. Many others told similar stories of their concern that creditors hold back when there is nothing to touch but, once the debtor is in work, the creditors move in. The objective is surely to avoid, wherever possible, that downward spiral into despair. It is not simply the individual who loses out by this impossible credit obligation that they take on, but society too—be it through the NHS or the continuance of the unemployed.
	Surely we are seeking to give particular protection to those in the lowest-income bracket. A social exclusion report of April 2004 provided further evidence of the differential impact of debt when it noted that those on incomes of less than £11,500 owed on average about 35 per cent. of their annual income in debt whereas for, higher income groups, only 10 to 20 per cent. of their income was committed. Indeed, all those on incomes of less than £7,500 had serious debt problems.
	I mentioned earlier that it was my belief that many individuals fail to manage credit because of financial illiteracy. Many households are still incapable of managing a household budget. Many see the solution to managing their budgets by filling the gap in the short term by borrowing. We all, of course, know of the day of reckoning that will come, with the often tragic circumstances that arise. We cannot protect everyone from themselves. This is not a nanny state, and neither should it be. However, in a society that cares, we must ensure that people are not unfairly treated and that their relative bargaining position is recognised and, where possible, that we educate, perhaps even through the national curriculum, to ensure a degree of economic literacy.
	I now wish to look briefly at some provisions of the new Bill and how they appear to improve on the earlier legislation. As has been said, the extortionate credit provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 do not work as consumers are either unable or unwilling to challenge extortionate conduct by lenders or, in any event, lack the will or ability to do so. My hope is that the new provisions against unfair relationships as set out in clauses 19 to 22 will offer a solution. In particular, clause 19 inserts the new "unfair relationship test" but it is important that there is even clearer direction as to what an unfair relationship consists of.
	I appreciate that the provisions of the Bill are to ensure that the court pays regard not only to the terms of the agreement, but to the way in which the creditor has exercised or enforced his rights and any other thing done or not done by the creditor. Indeed, it may additionally take into account any other matters, but the Bill still does not say precisely what I want it to say. I want it to say that the court shall specifically take into account the specific strengths of the parties at the time that the agreement was entered into. Nothing short of that, I fear, will protect the vulnerable.
	Although I notice that the Opposition did not, I particularly welcome the burden that is intended to be placed on the creditor to prove that the credit relationship is fair rather than on the debtor needing to prove that it is unfair. In that respect, it is important that the creditor has taken account of the debtor's ability to pay or repay the debt at the time of the making of the agreement. Indeed, I still think that there is a need for a cap on interest rates perhaps by some formula linked to the Bank of England lending rate. After all, the money lenders Act provided that a rate in excess of 48 per cent. was prima facie excessive. I would not have thought that it would be difficult to create some sort of framework to set out a rate of interest that would normally be considered excessive—say, 10 times the Bank of England lending rate—to give the court guidance, yet still leave it discretion.
	I want to highlight the fact that poor people are in the main those who suffer from the current credit market. It is thus they who need the support, so surely their individual circumstances must be taken into account. The study by the university of Brighton to which I referred also queried why poor people were prepared to deal with companies such as the Provident that charge rates of perhaps 40 or 50 per cent., or even more. It found that the answer was twofold. First, it found that other credit lines were not available. Most people found the social fund almost impossible to access. As we all know, the vast majority of people who apply to the social fund are turned down. Additionally, people in many parts of the country failed, or were unable, to contact credit unions, which would often be the answer. The second reason found by the study was simple. It found that the relationship between clients and collectors from groups such as the Provident operated on first-name terms with frequent contact, so the collectors were trusted.
	If we are to avoid poor people falling into such pitfalls, we need to give greater help to groups such as credit unions, which are already making a difference in a small way. Certainly the Hastings credit union is making a difference and I congratulate it on its work. Incidentally, I understand that the rates of interest that credit unions can charge are limited, which is an argument for issuing guidance on the matter.
	I pay tribute to the sterling work of debt advice services, such as that run by the Hastings citizens advice bureau. They really are life-savers, and I hope that through the Bill we can lighten their load.

Adrian Bailey: Before I address some remarks to the Bill I would like to compliment the two Conservative Members who have made maiden speeches. The hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) gave an incredibly competent and self-assured maiden speech. I was particularly interested, in so far as we have one thing in common: I come from a spa town, Cheltenham. I was interested that he brought out the point that even within towns that are popularly considered to be affluent there are invariably pockets of poverty that must be addressed. The fact that they are in towns of affluence often makes it more difficult to do so. The quality of his contribution demonstrated the fact that he will be most effective in addressing those problems.
	The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs. Miller) gave a fascinating history of Hampshire. The research that she did and the fact that she has obviously engaged with so many constituents' problems already clearly demonstrate that she will prove to be a most effective representative for her constituency in this House. I wish both hon. Members well.
	Like others, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on bringing the Bill before the House again. Like many others, I was very disappointed that it did not reach the statute book in the previous Parliament, and given the problems that it addresses, I was particularly concerned in case it was not reintroduced early in this Parliament. My hon. Friend has insisted on that and made sure of it, and I congratulate him.
	I see this Bill as an essential part of an anti-poverty strategy. It will not in itself deal with all aspects of poverty, but it undoubtedly addresses a particular contributor to poverty in this country that must be addressed, and it complements a range of other policies. I instinctively prefer a lighter-touch approach to manufacturing and in some cases to the financial industry, but given the debate on a number of issues in the Bill, particularly capped interest rates, industry must be made aware that this is a wake-up call and that the Government maintain a reserve power to take action if the proposals embodied in this legislation do not deal with the problems that have been so effectively articulated by a range of speakers to date.
	A number of Members have pointed out the changes that have taken place since the enactment of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. That made me think back to that year. I remember it particularly well, because it was the year when I first applied for a mortgage. I cannot help but contrast my experience then with that of people now. I remember, having saved in a local financial institution for some years, asking about the possibility of a mortgage. I had to sit down and go through all the details of my income and expenditure, and wait with some trepidation while the manager of the local branch looked through them dubiously before, with certain admonishments about the pattern of my future expenditure, grudgingly agreeing to give me a small mortgage.
	Now, that same financial institution is one of many bombarding me with offers of loans and mortgages that I do not want. If I had been told that then, I would truly have believed that the revolution had come. In many ways, of course, a revolution has taken place: the financial deregulation in the 1980s. It has led to a transformation in the financial world. We have a huge increase in lenders. That has led to more competition, and in many ways that is welcome. We have more sophisticated marketing, which has both its upside and its downside. This is meant for those people who are financially sound with good jobs and for those who are financially well educated. It has been a liberating experience for them. New opportunities have been offered to people in those categories. That has had a vital role in improving the lifestyle of many people, and I would not wish to decry or belittle that.
	There are other groups such as the unemployed, those on low incomes, single parents and some elderly people on low fixed incomes who have had an entirely different experience as a result of market deregulation. On one hand, they are bombarded with images of instant consumer gratification that can come with the flick of a credit card. On the other hand, they are confronted with the reality of having a low income, a low credit rating and high risk. When obtaining credit, they face high interest rates or, in addition, hidden charges. They are more at risk than others, and so many of the mainstream credit providers do not have the products that will suit these people. For a variety of reasons, people in some of the poorest areas on the lowest incomes are not able to have access to a range of products that are offered by the mainstream financial providers, because they have either withdrawn from those areas or because they are just not available to them.
	There is a vacuum, which is met by doorstep salesmen who peddle loans with high interest rates. Such arrangements are often disguised by complex regulations and promoted, sometimes, by simplistic and seductive marketing techniques. All too often these arrangements send people who are already on low incomes down a spiral of higher debt charges and greater poverty. For someone on a very low income, it takes only what we would consider a relatively small financial problem to place them on the slippery slope.
	A woman came to my constituency in tears. She lived in privately rented accommodation and her central heating system had packed up. Her landlord would not repair it. Instead, he gave her two convector heaters as a substitute. These heaters were eating up electricity. As a result, her fuel bills were rising. She ran into debt. She went to debt companies and there was a high interest rate. The process escalated until she was in a state of desperation. That is just one example, but I know that it is mirrored by those of hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country who live in communities like the one that I represent.
	A high proportion of people who live in constituencies such as mine have no bank accounts. Research was undertaken by Salford university in a Sandwell ward—the local authority—on behalf of the Sandwell credit union. Its findings showed that 33 per cent. of residents had no savings accounts, that 20 per cent. had no bank accounts and that 29 per cent. had debt problems. I know that these figures are reflected in other wards. All too often it is the small items—the need to have a washing machine, to provide school uniforms for the children and tragically, in some instances, the need for the elderly to pay for a funeral—that cause problems. An example from the local CAB is of someone borrowing £1,000 for a funeral to bury a relative and having to pay £600 in interest. My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Michael Jabez Foster) mentioned credit unions, as did a number of other Members. Credit unions play a valuable role in filling a gap in the market, and I am grateful for the efforts of Sandwell credit union to meet such demands. I wish it well.
	I should like to emphasise the fact that the financial services industry as a whole should give all the backing it can to credit unions, as there have been institutional obstacles to their development. I also emphasise the need for everyone, irrespective of their credit status, to play a role within credit unions; otherwise there is a danger that credit unions will be regarded as the poor man's bank. Many poor people do not want to be associated with a poor man's bank. Perversely, they feel more confident dealing with slicker financial institutions that do not offer the same sort of service. The work of credit unions should therefore be promoted.

James Duddridge: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for this great opportunity to speak in the debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs. Miller) on a very passionate speech—indeed, she used the word, "passion". I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). Those Members who were listening carefully will recall that he mentioned his love life—he said, "I have fallen in love with Tunbridge Wells." If I may be bold and slightly controversial in suggesting an affair, I ask him to find room in his heart to come and speak in Southend, a town with which I am sure he will also fall in love.
	I follow in the footsteps of Sir Teddy Taylor. Teddy and his wife Sheila welcomed Katy and I to the area with open arms and have always been there offering a helping hand. Our friendship is no doubt assisted somewhat by the fact that we share a passion for protecting the sovereignty of this Parliament and the United Kingdom from all who attack it.
	Teddy served the constituencies of Southend, East and what is now called Rochford and Southend, East for some 25 years. Before that, he was the Member of Parliament for Glasgow, Cathcart. In total, he was a Member of Parliament for 40 years, having first been elected in 1964. He has the respect of everyone in the constituency, from every walk of life and political party. He also served the country in the Scottish Office and subsequently as shadow Secretary of State for Scotland. He was and will continue to be a force in British politics and a great character. As I said, Teddy was first elected in 1964, before my parents had even met, let alone when I was a twinkle in their eye. I shall not try to replace Teddy, either in the Chamber or in the constituency. Apart from anything else, I cannot do the accent.
	I trust that the House will indulge me while I give an overview of the constituency. Rochford, to the north, is a long-standing market town, which has excellent architecture and is rich in history. It lies in Rochford district and Essex county council. Rochford district also boasts the lovely villages of Great Wakering, Little Wakering and Barling. Foulness Island, at the most easterly point of the constituency, was home to the Ministry of Defence and now accommodates QinetiQ, which tests munitions for our armed forces. The island represents half the constituency in size but contains only 179 voters.
	By contrast, Southend-on-Sea is much more densely populated. Our home is only a few minutes from the water, with wonderful views across to Kent and out to the ocean. We have a pier—the longest pleasure pier in the world. We also have award-winning beaches. It is a truly wonderful place. On a warm summer night, with the tide in, there are few better places to be than on the front, enjoying the sand, the sea and a plethora of other activities. With new, larger hotels being built in the area, it will doubtless be an excellent place for political conferences, especially for the smaller parties.
	Southend is not all sea and fun—we have a serious side. We have a vibrant education sector, with excellent grammar schools throughout the constituency and throughout Southend. In addition, the university of Essex, where I did my degree, has an expanding and welcome presence in Southend.
	The constituency also has its challenges. I especially want to mention two broad challenges. The first involves infrastructure and the second funding for our services. There is a problem with congestion for traffic heading from east to west and west to east. I would support work to widen the A127 and any measures to speed up traffic along that road. I would also welcome an outer relief road, although I am cautious about supporting specific proposals. Any outer relief road cannot be at the expense of building on the space for residential use. Rochford and Southend have unique charms and I would not want the areas to merge into one. Alas, once relief roads are built, the land within them becomes indefensible.
	I want to refer to the funding of local services. Like many seaside towns, Southend has a different set of priorities compared with the rest of the United Kingdom. The seaside brings people into the area in their later years, which puts a particular strain on the health service budget. Lower cost accommodation means that authorities near London send asylum seekers to be accommodated in the area, although the local council gets no additional funding for the secondary costs of those populations. I look forward to working with colleagues in all parties to ensure that the unique problems of seaside towns are tackled as sympathetically as possible.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess) recently raised the problem of funding for Southend council with the Local Government Minister in an Adjournment debate. There are several causes of the funding crisis, but I want to highlight the main one, which was raised in the debate and is a matter of constant dispute in Southend. The dispute centres on the assertion by the Office for National Statistics that there has been a massive reduction in Southend's population.

James Brokenshire: I am grateful for the opportunity to offer my first contribution to the House in this important debate on the Consumer Credit Bill. I am also pleased to follow my hon. Friends who also made their maiden speeches—my hon. Friends the Members for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), for Basingstoke (Mrs. Miller), for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) and for Rochford and Southend, East (James Duddridge). I was interested to hear the description of Southend by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East as my birthplace happens to fall within his constituency. I shall probably have a few discussions about Southend with him in the months ahead.
	The debate is important. The impact that debt has on so many people and families is profound. While the majority are able to manage their financial affairs effectively and make informed decisions in taking out debts and loans, many, unfortunately, are not. Often it is the most vulnerable members of our communities who are most affected by debt, and hon. Members on both sides of the House spoke about the problem.
	Before I address specific points in relation to the Bill, as this is my maiden speech I want to take the opportunity to pay tribute to my immediate predecessors, who served the constituency of Hornchurch well. I am sure hon. Members will agree that they have been a great credit to the House.
	John Cryer was elected as the Member of Parliament in 1997. As many Members will know, John can best be described as independently minded, not necessarily following the line of his leadership or his party and being prepared to trust his own judgment and principles where he thought that appropriate and necessary. In the eight years that John served as Member of Parliament, he carved out a reputation in the constituency of being well respected and hard working, a real campaigning constituency MP. That reputation is well deserved. John led many campaigns in support of local residents and community groups, and his approach is one that I intend to follow.
	The thing about John is that he is a very engaging, likeable character, and although we may disagree on a number of issues of policy, during the election campaign we always managed a courteous, good-humoured and good-natured relationship. That is a reflection of the character of the man and the way he conducted his politics. On a personal note, I wish John and his family the best for the future, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer) will keep us well informed of his progress.
	I should also like to pay tribute to Robin Squire. Robin served the constituency for 18 years, from 1979, and I am pleased to say that he is still serving his local community in his role as secretary to the Cleanaway Havering Riverside Trust, providing grants and other money to many valuable community projects in the area. Although independently minded in a different way, Robin served in government, as a Minister in the Department of the Environment, the Department for Education and the Department for Education and Employment. In the constituency, he was closely involved in a number of issues, particularly the rerouting of the A13 to ensure that it did not pass close to an important part of Rainham village. Robin was also instrumental in framing and developing freedom of information legislation, so he was a good parliamentarian as well as a good constituency MP. Robin has been a very good friend to me over many years, and I value the support and guidance that he has offered to me during that time.
	Hornchurch is a fantastic seat to represent, and I am honoured to have been elected to serve the communities of Hornchurch, Elm Park, Rainham and Wennington. The constituency is located on the eastern reaches of London, bordering on Essex, and although it falls within the London borough of Havering, it has a very Essex feel to it. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] I am pleased to see so many hon. Members from Essex here this afternoon. As an Essex boy, I am very proud to take on the responsibilities of serving the area.
	The history of Hornchurch can be traced back to Saxon times, when the manor of Hornchurch was owned by successive English kings. The area was reputedly a favourite resort of Edward the Confessor. The origin of the name "Hornchurch", however, is somewhat unclear, with tales of the king hunting a stag near the church and of a bull killing a wild boar that was being hunted by the monarch. I hasten to add that there is not much chance of that happening on Hornchurch high street now. What is clear is that the church remains an important part of the local community, and the parish church of St. Andrew's, rebuilt in 1222, is a striking focal point, as it looks down from the hill overlooking the main area of the town.
	Against that backdrop it is hardly surprising that there is a strong sense of tradition. There is also a strong sense of patriotism and national pride, with St. George's day being celebrated across the constituency. That, too, is grounded in a strong historical context. During the second world war, RAF Hornchurch played a central role in defending this country from attack and in securing a victory in the battle of Britain during the summer of 1940. During that period, Spitfires from 54, 65, 74, 222, 266 and 603 Squadrons defended the skies of southern England, and the names of many of the fighter pilots involved are commemorated to this day in a number of roads in the area that made up the old airfield.
	It is not just the history; we are also blessed with so many parks and open spaces which help to create the character of the area. Rainham marshes lie to the south-east, where the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds maintains a significant nature reserve. Close by is the village of Rainham, with its conservation area full of character, and Rainham hall, which was built in 1729 and is maintained by the National Trust. From a cultural perspective, Hornchurch is a centre for the arts in Havering—based around the popular Queen's theatre, which provides local access to plays and other productions.
	This is however an area with some challenges and some significant problems, too. Although we are lucky to have the Thames running through the southern edge of the constituency, it is in many ways marred by heavy industry, waste-transfer stations and polluting users. A recent study of the possibility of opening up Rainham creek to the north of the Thames for greater leisure and recreational use for local people revealed high levels of phosphates and a severely restricted ecosystem, making redevelopment much more difficult to achieve. Gravel extraction, landfill sites and other recent proposals involving industrial processes have highlighted an urgent need to regenerate and re-characterise Rainham.
	That could happen through the redevelopment of the Thames gateway, which covers a significant part of the area concerned, but the vision proposed by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister of high-density housing along the Thames riverside is not shared by many of my constituents. They are looking for a different type of development in that area. I will certainly be arguing from the Opposition Benches and taking forward in the House a very different vision for that area of my constituency.
	Although I have talked about the sense of tradition in the community, what has unfortunately become all too prevalent is yobbish behaviour, which has made the lives of many of my constituents a misery. Statistically, Hornchurch is one of the safest places in the country. Unfortunately, for many of my constituents, it does not feel that way. It angers me that so many people feel that they cannot go out at night because it is not safe to be on the streets after dark.
	Most recently, we had the threat of industrial action affecting the District line service covering part of my constituency, after a driver ended up with glass in his eye because somebody lobbed off a bridge a brick that struck his carriage. Graffiti and vandalism are also all too common, and the local police have told me that they have found traces of cocaine and other class A drugs in virtually every public house in Hornchurch. I have little doubt of the need for more police on the streets and a much tougher approach to people who think that they can get away with anything they want. That is simply not acceptable, and I shall be arguing forcefully from the Opposition Benches for the need to tackle such offences.
	Some of the problems to do with drugs are driven by despair and a lack of hope. That leads me back to the issues being debated this afternoon. I welcome the fact that this Bill strengthens the protection for debtors by expanding the concept of an unfair credit agreement. My hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) mentioned the impact that that has on constituency case loads and on the issues coming across our desks. In the short time I have been a Member of this House, I have already seen the impact that crippling debt can have on families and individuals.
	A father and son attended my very first surgery to highlight the despair that they felt for their son who was struggling to make ends meet. On benefits and having been unemployed for a considerable period, he was finding it very difficult to make payments on some of this indebtedness. He had taken out a further re-financing loan at a higher rate of interest and, unfortunately, that had merely compounded the problems that he faced. It was moving to hear the story that was given to me by the father, who told me that he had used his life savings to help his son get out of difficulties. He spoke of the stress and strain of that relationship and the effect on his physical health. The narrative made a lasting impression on me, given that the physical and mental distress of that family were evident during the time they spent with me in my advice surgery.
	I have no doubt that greater protections need to be afforded to people who are in vulnerable situations, particularly with refinancing transactions of the sort to which I have alluded. I welcome the intentions behind the Bill, particularly the provisions relating to unfair relationships. I share a number of the concerns that have been expressed in terms of the breadth of the definition. That goes to what is meant by an unfair relationship. As a lawyer—[Interruption.] I suppose that I had to declare an interest one way or another in the debate.
	As a lawyer, I have always interpreted legislation on the basis that we must have as much certainty as possible. In this instance, we are dealing with advising the debtor or the creditor. As drafted, the Bill relies much on the development of case law. The right hon. Member for Leeds, West (John Battle), who said that that in itself might deny justice to people who have got into problems, made a powerful contribution. I am sure that the issue will be taken further when the Bill is considered in Committee.
	I was interested in the right hon. Gentleman's concept of a non-exhaustive list. Perhaps that is something that can be explored and examined in greater detail. There is a consensus on what we are trying to achieve. I fear that the way in which the Bill is drafted may prevent this. I see that the Minister is nodding. I hope that what has been said by hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber will be considered carefully and reviewed as we consider the Bill.
	It is an honour and a privilege to serve as the Member for Hornchurch. One of my local priests, the Rev. Bob Love, said to me that hope is one of the most valuable things that we can offer. In a small way, I will try to provide that sense of hope to my constituents, by standing up on the issues that matter to them, by listening to those who think that no one is prepared to be interested in their concerns, and by giving a voice in the House to those who have none. This is the challenge to which I look forward with great relish.

Edward Vaizey: I am not sure what the etiquette is for a Member who has so recently been a maiden himself—I broke my duck only 24 hours ago—in commenting on the maiden speeches of my hon. Friends. Sadly, I was not in the Chamber to hear the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), but I will read it with interest tomorrow. I will certainly purchase the DVD. I have known my hon. Friend for many years and I know that his speech will have been effective and thought-provoking.
	I was privileged to be in the Chamber to hear the maiden speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Basingstoke (Mrs. Miller), for Rochford and Southend, East (James Duddridge), for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Gauke) and for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire). My hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke made an assured and confident speech. She showed a real love and affection for her constituency, which I think will make her an extremely effective representative. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East made his constituency, particularly the pleasure pier, sound rather like Ibiza. Perhaps he and the son of the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West (Mr. Bailey) can compare notes. Everyone who serves in the House believes that he needs to shore up his political capital in his constituency, but my hon. Friend is the only Member who must physically shore up his own constituency—£40 million is a small price to pay to keep it intact.
	I greatly enjoyed the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Hertfordshire, although he made a slight mistake in using up a well-worn excuse with the Whips. It clearly worked for his predecessor, so perhaps he should not have discarded it so quickly. I am grateful to him for mentioning a former resident of my constituency, the poet laureate John Betjeman, who wrote beautifully about his constituency, as well the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) and my own constituency. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch made a brilliant maiden speech that evoked the battle of Britain, the spirit of which he maintained in his determination to fight for his constituents, particularly on the issue of crime. He spoke movingly about his first constituency case, which involved a father and son who had got into great difficulties over debt.
	Debt is the subject of the Consumer Credit Bill. Although I have run out of privileges, having delivered my maiden speech 24 hours ago, today's debate gives me an opportunity to make numerous gaffes and to trample unawares over the conventions of the House. I would be enormously grateful if my hon. Friends and other hon. Members would intervene to point out my mistakes. I still regard myself as a layman, and am surprised to find that with the introduction of the Bill the House has gone back to square one. The original Consumer Credit Bill was debated extensively in Parliament before the election was called. It received its Second Reading and completed the Committee stage, which consisted of eight or nine sittings. My hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) served on that Committee. After Third Reading, the Bill proceeded to the Lords, yet it is back in the House again. Perhaps one of the great virtues of our unwritten constitution is the requirement that we should go back to square one, but I would break with convention and be so bold as to suggest that we find a fast-track procedure for uncontentious Bills that have been subject to examination, even in a previous Parliament. When a new Parliament is elected everything that the previous Parliament did is forgotten, but in the 21st century we should move on.
	Having attended a great deal of today's debate, it is a great pleasure as a new Member to witness a genuine debate. Most of the Bill is relatively uncontroversial, which may be why a genuine debate and exchange of ideas has taken place. I shall focus on two aspects of the Bill on which I have developed my thoughts as I have listened to hon. Members. First, however, I shall make a general observation about what the Bill is trying to achieve. Of course, we need to strike a balance and introduce the right amount of regulation, while allowing the free market to create the products of which consumers wish to take advantage. Individuals must take responsibility for their own actions, but the use of loans and debt effectively to enslave people in debt is reprehensible. There is no moral case for the 300 per cent. loan mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke. The person offered that loan clearly did not understand it, and it would not be possible to repay the capital. Even in a relatively unregulated free market such loans and products should not be allowed to tempt people.
	We have heard a great deal in this debate about the state of the British financial services market and we are fortunate in having a thriving credit card industry. We have heard that there are more than 1,300 credit cards on the market, but I came across a remarkable statistic that says a lot about what is wrong with the financial services industry. Half the people who enter a shop and leave with a store credit card will have had no intention of taking up such a card from the store.
	As everyone knows, store credit cards tend to charge a far higher rate of interest than other cards. This very morning, I had a tyre changed on my car. I shall not name the organisation to which I went as it provided an excellent service in changing the tyre. I knew that I might have the chance to speak in this afternoon's debate, however, and I noticed on the cash desk a large glossy sign promoting a store card with an annual percentage rate of 29.9. Under existing law, that may not be an extortionate credit agreement, but it is certainly way above the rate of interest that any sane or financially sophisticated human being would want to pay.
	I wish to declare an interest as several years ago I worked as a consultant for Virgin Direct, which provides Virgin's personal financial services; it is Richard Branson's financial services arm. Indeed, I now have a Virgin pension and individual savings account. When I worked for the company in the late 1990s, we ran a campaign to make financial regulation for personal consumer products much more transparent. Britain does not have the most sophisticated financial services industry in the world. The reason why Virgin went into that market is the same as that for which it goes into a lot of markets—it can spot an opportunity. It spots an industry that is complacent and that has forgotten about the needs of the consumer and is not providing innovative products. One of the products that Virgin brought to the marketplace was the current account mortgage, whereby people could pay off their mortgage effectively because it was treated as an overdraft. People could pay it off from their salary, and they could do so much more rapidly than with a conventional mortgage.
	I learned from that experience that, interestingly, Australia and New Zealand appear to have a far more sophisticated and consumer-oriented financial services market. I will be interested to hear from the Minister, either at the end of the debate or in the future, what consumer credit laws those countries have. I suspect that they have a relatively straightforward and laudable approach.
	One of the campaigns that we ran, which resulted in some Government action, related to the creation of CAT standards by the Treasury. The Treasury has its own sophisticated marketing arm, and the great Treasury brains got together and decided on CAT, which stands for charges, access and terms. The idea was that the "charge" aspect related to making clear the charge for a product, whether it was an ISA or a pension. In order to meet the CAT standard, the interest charge would have to be within 1, 1.5 or 2 per cent. "Access" meant being able to get in and out of a product without being hit by hidden charges, and "terms" meant that people were aware of all the terms that were in the wiring of the product, as it were, or the small print.
	We were dealing with very straightforward products such as ISAs and personal pensions. In effect, they were the sort of financial products that the middle classes use, but the consumer could still be hit by hidden charges and find themselves paying far more than they expected. That was the case at, if I can put it this way, the most honest end of the financial services spectrum. It is a matter of some regret to me that the Government did not pursue CAT standards and make more of them. I think that they took the view—I made this point at the beginning of my speech—that there was a fine balance to be struck between regulation and the service of the free market, and that they were concerned about being seen as over-regulating or heavy-handed. If Ministers had displayed more will, however, CAT standards would have taken off.
	I have no doubt that the free market has worked. Two legacies of the stakeholder pension, which, again, has not been as successful as it could have been, is the driving down of charges and increased transparency in the financial services arena. The Government do not need to worry too much about intervention to protect the consumer.
	By and large, financial products are opaque and sophisticated, but they should be simpler and more consumer-friendly. I support the Government's objectives of making APRs as simple and straightforward as possible, of eradicating small print and turning it into big print and of making sure that such products are not marketed aggressively or deceitfully.
	I am especially interested in two issues, the first of which is the interest rate cap. To be honest, I did not have a strong view on the matter before I heard hon. Members debate it this afternoon. As a Conservative, my instinct is to oppose a cap as a regulation too far, but I cannot see how, even in the free market, anyone can justify loans at 300 per cent., 500 per cent. or 1,000 per cent. If there were an interest rate cap, such loans would not be available—a Labour Member made the telling point that they should not be available in the first place because they are a hiding to nothing.
	I recognise the dangers of regulation and of setting the financial situation in aspic. If the industry moved on after the introduction of an interest rate cap, it would be left with a relic from the past. I do not want to sound too much like a Liberal Democrat, but I wonder whether a possible compromise is an interest rate threshold above which products must be licensed. That idea may be worth examination, or it may be my second gaffe and one of the stupidest ideas ever heard in this Chamber.
	I have been extremely interested in the discussion about clause 19 on unfair relationships, which, I suspect, will be the main focus of debate in Committee. I agree with my hon. Friends that the Government should examine providing extra guidelines, because clause 19 is neither fish nor fowl. On the one hand, it may be too widely drawn because perfectly respectable lenders who have made perfectly responsible lending agreements could be vulnerable to frivolous and vexatious claims in which the courts would be asked to consider whether any part of those agreements is unfair. On the other hand, as we have learned from the 1974 Act, it may be drawn so widely that the courts are reluctant to intervene, even in cases in which the terms are clearly unfair. I urge the Minister to set out guidelines for the courts on the respective bargaining powers of the relevant parties, on the marketing and making of loan and credit agreements, on the availability of information, on small print, and so on and so forth.
	I welcome many other aspects of the Bill, such as the creation of an ombudsman and the need for creditors to provide regular statements to debtors. However, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) that the four-week check could inadvertently spawn a huge amount of bureaucracy.
	One issue that has often come up in my surgery—I do not know whether the Minister will have an opportunity to address it—is that of credit ratings. Many people have been given a bad credit rating by mistake and find it almost impossible to plough through the maze in order to have it removed. It is almost Orwellian or Kafkaesque. One is judged guilty, is unaware that one has been so judged, and when one pleads one's innocence it seems almost impossible to reverse the judgment.
	We have talked extensively about people being seduced into bad credit deals, and that is partly due to the lack of personal finance education in our schools. People are happy to debate sex education at the drop of a hat on the radio and television shows on which I frequently appear. We constantly debate the merits of sex education in schools and recognise the importance of our children being properly educated in that regard, yet in purchasing a house or taking out a loan, which are some of the most important transactions that they will undertake—I thought that I would have to choose my words carefully—they enter the financial world as naked as the day they were born. Personal finance education is not as attractive a subject as the other one, but it is extremely important.
	Finally, I echo the point made by the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West about the need to deal with add-on products. All too often, a relatively benign product can be sold to a consumer only for them to be almost compelled to purchase a financial product that they do not need and has extremely unfair terms. We must ensure that lenders are not in a position to do that much too easily.

Charles Hendry: That has always been the case; my allies are always on the Labour Benches.
	What we have heard during the debate has been tremendous support for the Bill's principles but, nevertheless, a great deal of concern about some of the details. Virtually every hon. Member who has spoken called for more details, starting with the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (John Battle), who made a remarkable speech and to whom tribute was paid by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
	What is clear is that we come to the Bill from different perspectives. We are looking for different aspects of the detail to be provided because we may be ultimately looking for different things to emerge. The Minister therefore owes it to us to provide us with that detail as the Bill goes for consideration in Committee, so that we can clearly see what is in his mind. I simply do not believe that the Government are dealing with a blank piece of paper on this issue.
	I know the way that the civil service works too well to think that the Government have not got those things worked out. If we start to come up with thoughts in Committee, they have got reams of paperwork already prepared, which they will be able to use to explain why certain bits should, or should not, be included. We want the Minister to provide more detail in Committee, so that we can fully understand the Bill.
	There has been a great deal of talk, too, about the need for transparency and to help consumers understand what they are signing up to. My hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) spoke about that with a great deal of eloquence. It is going beyond the call of duty that, having led for the Opposition in the debates on the previous Bill, he has taken part again today. Perhaps he would like to serve again on the Standing Committee. He would be extraordinarily welcome.
	My hon. Friend also said that credit deals are often extremely complex and confusing. People think that they are signing up for one thing but end up getting something else. Any hon. Member who has tried to buy a car recently will realise that choosing the type of car, the engine size, the colour and the interior is only the easy part; it is when one comes to working out how to pay and all the ramifications of the huge range of options available that it gets truly confusing. What all hon. Members want on behalf of consumers is a system whereby they can really see what is proposed.
	I listened with great interest to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr. Vaizey). I particularly agree with him about the need for personal financial education. We are letting young people leave school and education without an understanding of the deep and detailed financial issues that they will be required to deal with extremely soon after leaving. We owe it to them to give them that sort of education, and I hope that the Minister will talk to his colleagues at the Department for Education and Skills to ensure that they are aware of that.
	Concern has also been expressed about leaving such issues to the courts. Again, that issue was raised by the right hon. Member for Leeds, West and the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West (Mr. Bailey). I share their concern that many consumers are terrified of going to court, that their experience of court has probably been negative and that the idea of taking on a major financial institution is the sort of stuff that they believe happens in John Grisham novels, not something that ordinary people want to face in their ordinary lives.
	We need to take as much of the detail away from the courts as possible and put it in the Bill, so that the consumers and the credit institutions know what they are dealing with. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East was very eloquent in talking about the dangers of leaving the courts to decide the details and in highlighting the need for caution in making the Bill retrospective.
	There has been much discussion about interest-rate caps by the right hon. Member for Leeds, West, and by the hon. Members for West Bromwich, West and for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr (Adam Price). The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), whom I was remiss in not welcoming to his brief at the beginning of the debate, was quite right that the worst cases where consumers have been let down occur when people have borrowed from multiple sources and no one has checked whether they can pay back the money. That is a bigger issue than the level of interest rate caps. I am convinced that introducing interest rate caps would not help those in greatest need. There is no doubt that those who lend to those people would start to withdraw and people would borrow from unscrupulous, illegal or unchecked lenders. The most vulnerable consumers would end up losing out.
	Caps would also threaten to close down whole sections of the credit industry—for example, pawnbrokers. Most of us would not think it unreasonable if somebody in need of cash took their television set to the pawnbrokers and left it there in return for £50. If they went back a month later and retrieved it for £60, that would for many people seem to be a good way of evening out their cash flow. It is actually an APR of more than 1,000 per cent., so if we start capping APRs at an arbitrary level, we will close down an extraordinarily important part of the credit industry.
	An undercurrent through the debate has been the general anxiety about the levels of debt in our society. That point was mentioned by the hon. Members for North Norfolk and for Hastings and Rye. The latter spoke eloquently about the survey by the Tomorrows Peoples Trust, an outstanding organisation with a good reputation on this issue and for training young people. He had interesting ideas on how the problem should be stopped and how we can stop people taking on debt that they simply cannot afford.
	This is not just an issue for people on the lowest incomes. Debt now affects people in all parts of the country and of all income levels, as my hon. Friends the Members for Tunbridge Wells and for Basingstoke made clear. It is particularly an issue in the south-east where the cost of housing is so high that people are forced to take on extra levels of borrowing and debt to meet their bills. That is particularly an issue for young people.
	The hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr spoke about how, week on week on average, people spend beyond their means—£20 a week, £1,000 a year. This is a massive problem and one of which we must be aware.
	The measures in the Bill enjoy our support, but we believe that it can be improved in Committee and that the Government need to be much bolder if they are going to tackle debt-ridden Britain. They need to wake up to the growing crisis of a country in ever-greater debt and the evidence that people are struggling more and more to keep up with their repayments, as shown in today's press reports. Debt is growing by £1 million every four minutes; it has grown by £80 million in the course of this debate. Some £1.1 trillion of debt is a massive millstone round the necks of families across the country. As we have heard in the debate, that often ends in misery and sometimes tragedy.
	The Government need to start by putting their house in order. They are the biggest serial debtor of the lot, with the Chancellor the natural heir to Viv Nicholson, who won the pools and went on to spend, spend, spend until there was nothing left. Although the Chancellor can put up taxes, and he does, to cover his spending, the public do not have that option. In just eight years, debt in Britain has doubled and the Government need to be less complacent and more willing to recognise the extent of the threat.
	To continue, however, in the vein of constructive dialogue in which the debate has been carried out, I recognise that this is an important Bill. We support it. However, it can be improved, as every Member who has spoken has pointed out. We look forward to working with the Minister in Committee and hope that he will be willing to take changes on board. It may be another 31 years before we have the chance to review the legislation again so let us get it right now.